"The Vision"

[Salandra]

Noivad made this post in another forum and I'm replying here. 1st Post is a reference post.

I had a conversation last night with someone and that person mentioned something about "Joe's vision" now shackling the game from being what it could be. I suggested perhaps it's time for Joe to have "Vision 2.0" -- you know: mystic with shieldstones, fighters with purg pendants, mystics that could summon people, sharks with frickin' lasers! etc.

Joe did say he'd was going to try to get the numbers up. Perhaps he's already re-evaluated the game and changes are a'comin. But if he hasn't perhaps he should put "fun" in the foundation, and focus on changes that will make people want to play more, and allow all types of play-styles in it. You know: solo hunters being able to do their thing, groups able to rank whore if they find that fun.

I remember some of the tenets of CL are "unfun things shouldn't be rewarded." and "the risk is the reward" Perhaps there should be new tenets like "overly frustrating things shouldn't be implemented, unless they're puzzles.", "fun comes in all shapes and sizes.", and "The reward should be worth the risk." If a person doesn't HAVE to do something, and does it anyway, they must consider it fun. Instead of stifling someone's fun because I don't think it's fun, perhaps we should examine what makes it fun to them and channel that into a new feature. For instance people used to make valley runs last for hours. They're run back and forth while it spawned and spend all day having fun. To a GM it might have looked like people were doing this monotonous action: "4 snells East, 4 snells west...." But to the players it was "Hunt where is a challenge to us we can manage." Instead of looking at it and going: People love the valley, but they're doing this monotonous running back and forth. We should make the hunt longer so they're less likely to WANT to run back and forth. So, we should make the Valley bigger (like people suggested); they decreased spawns so people would run through once and have to move on. That's just one example. I'm sure people can come up with others.

As far as Ranger OPness. That's a problem. But instead of going how can we nerf them, I think it should be, "how can we make playing other sub-classes more fun, and rebalance monsters with rangers in mind?" But knowing DT, you're right Cinn, that's probably not going ot happen.

[Salandra]

I had a conversation last night with someone and that person mentioned something about "Joe's vision" now shackling the game from being what it could be. I suggested perhaps it's time for Joe to have "Vision 2.0" -- you know: mystic with shieldstones, fighters with purg pendants, mystics that could summon people, sharks with frickin' lasers! etc.

Noivad and I were the ones talking about this and he encouraged me to make a post so I'm following his lead and doing so.

The basic tenet that I brought up was that I felt that too many of the design choices were being limited by what I referred to a "Joe's Vision" preventing what I felt like would be a more enjoyable playing experience for the players. He asked what I meant by this and my reply was basically anything that fell into the category of not being added because "It's not CL enough" or not something Fighters/Healers/Mystics should do so no x/y/z can't do it. Now there has always got to be a limit somewhere and I doubt anyone would say differently but honestly I think CL is at the point where "The Vision" needs to be expanded some to let in some more fun ideas that might not be exactly what was planned for when CL was first started but would add a lot of fun for the people who are playing today. The key premise being add fun things that are outside the original vision just to make the whole game more fun.

I have specific examples but I'll let people digest what's been said and see how things go before I get into that. Noivad listed a bunch and I think those are good enough to get the ball rolling if people want to talk about it.

One of my biggest concerns with bringing this topic up, and I shared this with Noivad, was that a GM or GMs would take it as a "GM Bashing" comment/thread... That's not my intention in the least and from talking to Noivad thats not his. One of the reasons its in this forum is because Noivad said he would monitor it and keep it from getting out of hand. Other than the general wish for better things, and perhaps a more unhappy feeling towards specific mystic skills/tools design, I've been very impressed with what the work that the GMs have been doing and the new areas, some of the best yet, that they've been making for us.

[Fogtripper]

I too feel frustrated at times when I hear "that's not CL". I kind of accepted that back when it was vanilla fighters/healers/mystics. Now that it's become vanilla mystics/healers versus bells and whistles out the wazoo multiple subclasses that can shape shift, speed boost, turn to stone, mass-incinerate, suck the blood for powerful uses...

Yeah, "not the CL vision" doesn't quite hold water anymore. Not when one class has been allowed to go gangbusters towards whatever fun stuff can be thought up and programmer has the willingness to program.

edit: The sandbox is still here, and thanks for that. However when one class gets Tonka trucks, Micronauts, Star Wars action figures (the originals) and fireworks, while the others are still left with Legos®... eh.

[Gloria]

I really don't agree with subclasses for any class. These are part of the original 'vision' for fighters only. I will do my best to defend healers from subclasses (and the divisions and tensions they imply). It is much better in my opinion to have every new ability open to the entire class at once.

I actually agree with and support the idea of the 'vision'. It really is an important guiding principle for CL. I believe in maintaining the 'vision', but I think something must be done to give mystics a bit of a break. To an outsider, the mystic class needs some vitality that might involve crossing the boundary of the current 'vision' for that class. A good example would be the 'staff of the little people' that Salandra mentioned in another thread. If only three people have completed the requirement, that seems too restrictive. I also mean in terms of new content for mystics, not just old.

[Cinnamon]

I really don't agree with subclasses for any class.

These are part of the original 'vision' for fighters only.

No. Subclasses aren't part of the original vision at all. The original vision is 2 classes. Not even Mystics are part of the original vision.

So much for The Vision. It's past time for a new vision.